Training AI For Interpersonal Intelligence And Caring With Jesh DeRox [Podcast]

Can AI be trained to care? Cultural anthropologist, legendary photographer, and founder of Superfeel, Jesh De Rox, believes so, and is creating a platform to do it. This revolutionary social wellness platform uses deep insights from neuroscience and anthropology to help people authentically express themselves, meaningfully connect, and grow.

This conversation blew my mind! Watch the video, listen to the audio, or read the transcript.

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What’s In This Episode

• How, and why, did Jesh get into photography?
• What is the “personal wall” and why do humans put the wall up?
• How Jesh invites people to be more real in front of the camera.
• One communication tip to spike interest with your partner, friend or co-worker.
• Jesh’s vision for improving how AI works.
• What is interpersonal intelligence?
• How can a new online platform invite real connection?
• What’s the difference between dopamine addiction loop and the oxytocin/serotonin loop?
• Learn about SuperFeel, an online platform to bring more interpersonal intelligence to AI.
• What is a data garden?
• What is ultra-personalization in AI?
• Can AI be trained to care?
• How can others get involved with SuperFeel?

Watch The Video

Listen To The Audio

Read The Transcript

Nate Regier:  Hello, I’m Nate Regier founder and CEO of Next Element, a global consulting and training firm helping organizations transform their cultures with Compassionate Accountability^®. Thanks for joining me on the Compassionate Accountability podcast, where we get to meet amazing people who are bringing more compassion to the world. I hope you’ll find something useful in this episode and if you like what you hear, please subscribe, rate and review to help us reach more listeners. Be sure to visit our website at next-element.com where you can learn more about our work and check out all of our previous episodes.

Once in a while, a person comes along who emanates a special kind of energy. They seem especially present, more connected, more in tune with themselves in the universe. You know, their dreams are bigger yet somehow they seem reachable and their visions are compelling and inspiring. Their stories give you chills. Today’s guest is one of these people. Today’s guest is one of those people. Jesh De Rox is a cultural anthropologist, speaker and entrepreneur whose work explores the link between emotional intelligence, creative genius, human connection and joy. His first claim to fame was developing a technique that gave photographers the ability to draw out genuine emotion from people they photographed. His work sparked a worldwide movement that touched millions of people and made him one of the most awarded photographers of his generation. Jesh is now the co-founder and CEO of Superfeel, a revolutionary social wellness platform that uses deep insights from neuroscience and anthropology to help people authentically express themselves, meaningfully connect and grow. And that’s just the beginning. Jesh, welcome to the Compassionate Accountability podcast.

Jesh De Rox: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Nate Regier: I want to tell you, when we first met at the Compassion + Product conference in San Francisco last fall, I was really impacted by your presence and insight, I just need to tell you that.

Jesh De Rox: Thank you.

Nate Regier: You know, the conference was pretty special. Really the first of its kind assembling researchers and developers and practitioners and investors and visionaries, all sharing this common passion for bringing more compassion to the world. I’m curious, before we dive into kind of your world, was there anything that was special for you about that gathering?

Jesh De Rox: Yes, there were several things. One of them, though, the first that came to mind was when you were giving your presentation, and telling the story about your personal experience with your, with your daughter, and how that was very formative in your understanding of what you do, and how you touch the world. And I loved your use of story. I love watching a crowd become drawn into a story. I practice many different art forms, but my favorite is speaking. I think speaking in front of an audience is kind of a lost art in a certain way. And it’s arguably the most powerful in certain settings, and that ability of story to come out, the way that we all felt closer to you were speaking, And also something I’ve just found to be a fundamental truth, which is the person who invented shoes, stepped on something very sharp. And if they hadn’t, then they never would have taken the time and energy to invent shoes. And I think it’s to me, one of my favorite of all human things is that one of the responses to hurting your foot is to invent shoes. And I knew, as you were telling that story that you were one of those rare people because it’s not the most common response. The most common response is to swear at the rocks, which has been done infinite times over the experience of the human condition. And it has never once changed a single thing for the better. And every once in a while you get someone who hurts their foot and then events shoes. And I just I’m always so honored and humbled by that particular part of humans because by solving their own problem in that way, they ended up preventing the suffering of many others and supporting achievements and accomplishments of many others. And they make that pain, meaningful and beautiful and all that long description to say, I sensed that about you instantly and therefore sensed we were kindred.

Nate Regier:  Well, thank you, I really appreciate that. You’ve stepped on some sharp objects in your life. Your first career was, you’ve had a couple, and I want to get to what you’re doing now. But one of your careers was as a photographer, and people that are photographers probably know who you are already. But will you share a little bit about your journey to, to that, you know, I think you’re you’re Canadian, right? You grew up in Canada?

Jesh De Rox: I’m a dual citizen. I grew up half in Canada, half in the United States. Yeah.

Nate Regier:  All right. Um, how did you get into photography and what came up came from that for you?

Jesh De Rox: Well, as I mentioned in one of our early conversations, I grew up very lonely and isolated. I think a lot of people feel like that, you know, so at a certain level, I’m not sure just how rare that part of it was. But I certainly felt it very intensely. I’m a deep feeling kind of a person. And as a result of that, I’m definitely a little more isolated than most people I think, I became really obsessed with trying to understand how you make a friend, how you start a relationship. And I thought about those things, I think, a lot more cerebrally and mechanistically, than most people do. And I was also probably predisposed towards empathy genetically. And the experience of isolation, I had also boosted that, I think significantly. So as a result of all that, I became very drawn to photography, because the whole job of photography is you get to look at people and you have their permission to do that. And there’s also this social invitation that you get into the heart of really deep and complex social dynamics, friend groups, families, that I didn’t know how to be a part of otherwise. And because it was my job to capture those things, they invite me straight into the heart of them, and I was able to witness some pretty intimate interactions between people that just felt so precious and special to me. I saw people you know, put the veil over their daughter and, and pass them off to someone else and start crying. And I saw people hold hands, while somebody they loved passed into the next world, a new life, you know, coming from the inside of someone to the outside of someone. I saw a lot of really extraordinary things during that time. And I felt like I got a front row seat into these spaces where humans tend to be a little bit more of themselves than usual. It’s always struck me this saying that we have, I feel so alive. Because it means that since it’s said so rarely, people actually don’t feel their life very often. And there are these moments every once in a while where we feel our life, so intensely, it must be said.  And we blurt out or we say I feel so alive. And the moments that people usually want you to photograph, there tend to be a higher percentage of those kinds of moments than usual. So being a photographer really took me from very far away from everyone to very near to everyone. And it was a very, very special experience to get to witness all of those, those things. I ended up noticing that there’s a barrier that people bring up when they know they’re being observed. And all that magic I was just talking about instantly disappears. I ended up giving that a name. I called it the personal wall and that personal wall is a defensive structure that is innate to almost all humans. And it is in place a lot of the time and in fact it’s in place so much of the time that most people start to think that’s normal life. And one of the key similarities between moments where people say, I feel so alive, there’s a few similarities between such moments, but one of them is that the personal wall is not there. Nobody is shouting, I feel so alive while the personal wall is up. So, I noticed this personal wall, I felt it, it’s not a thing that’s visible, really. You can see how it changes facial expression and how it mutes honesty. But it’s not a physical thing in the sense that, you know, our senses can really touch it. But I did feel it, you know, through my empathic sense, I guess you could say. And the more that I put attention on it, the more I understood it was my prime adversary, in not only trying to capture images of people that really contained essence, which was what I was trying to do, but also just in the way that I felt personally, because we’re creatures of shared, you know, emotion. Emotion is a communal system, they like to say, rather than an individual one and so if I’m trying to photograph you, and you are very awkward, while that’s happening, your body will be streaming a lot of awkward energy towards me, which, if I’m untrained, like most of us are, I will then mirror and amplify and send you back even more awkward energy. And that loop just ends up in deep level of discomfort and a thin chance of connection, joy, feeling alive. And so as I was exploring with that personal wall, I figured out how to lower it. And the way that I figured that to lower it was really counterintuitive. I found out that the fastest and most efficient way to invite you to lower your personal wall was for me to completely let go of mine. And my personal wall is even harder to see than your personal wall because my eyes are facing in the opposite direction. But once I became aware of others’ personal walls, and felt how uncomfortable that made me, it pointed me back to my own personal wall. And I experimented with building relationship with it and lowering it on purpose, and then entering new engagements with no personal wall at all. And seeing how quickly people responded in kind to that was astonishing. And probably the great discovery of that whole period of my life is that when those personal walls are down, not only do you get beautiful pictures of people, you get joy, you get connection, you get friendship, you get closeness, you get creative expression, you’re touched, you’re moved, you’re changed, every single time the personal wall was down. And it’s one of the reasons why babies and young children tend to move us more than most adults.  They have no personal wall, for better or worse. So my time being a photographer really took me super deep close into that functionality of people and understanding it and learning an incredible amount from it.

Nate Regier: You’ve unlocked these secrets for how to get people to let down that wall, that personal wall and show you who they really are, what are some of the strategies that you developed?

Jesh De Rox: So, the most important piece is remembering that humans are a response to an environment. So you got to understand that you are an environment for every single person you are interacting with. And the more that you can make yourself a safe, open space, the easier that that gets. The number one kind of way I practice that in the beginning was by looking for the beautiful precious nature in people. And when I’m looking across you and I can see that you are beautiful and important, my whole physiology responds and echoes that same understanding. It’s a visceral, tangible experience that another body has, which literally changes the part of their brain from which they will be most dominantly communicative from that point. So at a foundational level, you being a safe space, you being somebody who perceives the beauty in front of them I would ask really unusual questions to them. Or I would sometimes ask them to do things that had them focus on their sense perceptions. So some examples of that. This is one of the kind of silliest ones, but it’s very, very effective. You can ask somebody, you know, that you’re talking with to on the count of three guess the color that you’re about to say, and you do the same, you guess the color that they’re about to say. And when you do that, the rational mind can’t understand and can’t predict what color they’re going to say. So especially as the countdown starts happening, you see the switch over where rational brain is trying to figure it out, realizes it can’t, and so steps aside, and the intuitive, creative brain steps in and just guesses something. And as simple as that is, it almost always results in laughter and a whole series of kind of connected facial expressions and body language. And one of the things I realized is that the creative, expressive part of people is deeply related to the connective piece of them. And when we think about the artists of the world, why is it that we treasure them so much, because with what they made, they somehow found a way to connect to a lot of different people. So connective and creative are often seen as very different things. And the fact is that they’re profoundly intertwined. And if I would give kind of one tip overall, for somebody outside of a, you know, photography context, to connect with people more, I would say, be more creative in your communication. And this is true, even for the people that you interact with on a daily basis, like your, your, your friends and your family. If you come home this evening, and you just, you know, refer to your partner in a term that they’re not used to being referred to, it’s guaranteed to spike interest. And interest is deeply related to connection. Also, as interest falls off, connection becomes absolutely impossible. And it’s one of the things that you see quite striking in the difference between the beginning of relationships and near the end of relationships. There’s things we kind of naturally do in the beginning of relationships, where we’ll make up pet names for people. My cuddly, wuddly bear or schnukums or little things like that. What we’re actually doing is accessing the hyper creative part of the brain while that’s happening, which also happens to be the hyper connective piece.  As people go on through a relationship, if you could see some kind of chart where the amount of pet names created from beginning to end, in almost all cases, it trends downward sharply. And what I found is that connection, even in long term relationship, is as simple as reintroducing creative interaction. And what would happen is, I would say things like, alright, you know, Jordan, I want you to imagine that your sense of smell is going to disappear forever in 30 seconds, and you only have 30 seconds left to smell Katherine’s neck. And they both look at each other like, whoa. And I was like, All right, go. And he just dives into that neck and he takes it all in like he’s never taken it in ever before. She automatically responds to that and her whole body just starts becoming overwhelmed by this sudden burst of interest that he is he is sharing with her. And it’s so simple, and it’s obviously completely, you know, imaginary. But that’s how little context a brain needs to be able to access this hyper creative piece, which is connected to the hyper connective. So, another one that I did that was very powerful and very classic amongst photographers at this point is called blush. And what I would say is, you know, alright, Katherine, you have 30 seconds to whisper something into Jordan’s ear to try to make him blush. And the experience of somebody whispering is a very intense, you know, sensory experience. Whispering in front of somebody else who’s watching you? There’s a whole extra degree because whispering is so loud. It’s like as loud or louder than yelling. So, to you, it sounds like this is being But can very loud and it’s very inappropriate things that are often shared in that space. And the person in front of you, you know, you’ve got this dualistic experience of this very inappropriate thing being yelled into your ear at the same time as this other person’s watching you. It invariably leads to this beautiful fountaining of just core honest, you know, human personality pouring out and there’s . . .  do you want me to keep going?

Nate Regier: Those are wonderful. And you know just those few examples. It’s, if people are watching the video, they hopefully can see your face light up while you told these and my face. We can see these expressions, and it’s not just the audio, so encourage you, when you’re watching this go to the YouTube version. A little bit ago, I thought we should just play the color thing. You want to play it with me? I want to try that. So, so how does it go again?

Jesh De Rox: Okay, so on the on the count of three, I’m gonna say the color you’re gonna say and you say the color I’m gonna say. Okay?

Nate Regier: Okay.

Jesh De Rox: Okay. 1, 2, 3, Blue.

Nate Regier: Purple.

Jesh De Rox: We’ll try again.

Nate Regier:  Now, do I do it? Or do you keep counting?

Jesh De Rox: I’ll count down. We try to say at the same time. At the count of three.  1, 2, 3. Orange.

Nate Regier: Brown.

Jesh De Rox: So, it doesn’t even matter if the same ones are said or not. It’s just what part of the brain you know, is is on there. But coming back to like a practical example for like, at home. Make up a new pet name for your partner, as soon as you get back, and you will be surprised to see what happens. And then do it for both of your you know, your children or whatever. Start interacting even with like a co-worker and say, hey, you know, hey, Bear?

Nate Regier: Yeah, yeah.

People just kind of look funny like that. And it is a deep part of connection is going outside of the labels that we have, because connection doesn’t really flow through labels, you know?

Nate Regier: So you’ve spent a lot of your life and a lot of energy, kind of trying to figure out how do we make connection? How do we get people to let down that personal wall and show who they really are? And when I heard you speak, you all of a sudden, like shifted gears and start talking about AI. And you know, we were at a conference where there’s developers, and there’s a lot on AI and I know you have a lot of views on what’s going on with artificial intelligence. But one of your strongest views is that AI is being populated with what’s – It’s not being populated with good stuff. Will you talk about kind of how you view this and how this relates to your desire to bring better stuff to the world?

Jesh De Rox: Sure. So I would just clarify my viewpoint on it by saying, it’s not that it’s not necessarily being built with good stuff, but not enough good stuff. So, there’s a kind of commonly understood, well scientifically documented, fact that 1% of people online are generating 99% of the content. And the AI is only built and trained basically on things that are online. And most of it’s from the public domain, which means that a large percentage of it has been created from this 1%. And while I am, of course, very thankful for this 1%, who have given us a lot, there’s a lot in the 99% who do not know how to share themselves, who to not practice those particular things, that they’re carrying a lot of really deep, important value. And we’re about to give governance to this thing that has been built from less than 1% of us. And it’s supposed to somehow understand and care for and provide fairly and ethically for all of us? That’s a ridiculous notion. So, what I believe is that the AI that should be built, that’s going to have that much power, it should be ethically built, it should be built with permission, which by the way, the other was not. And it should be built from as many of us as possible. So, I believe in something that I call interpersonal intelligence rather than artificial intelligence. And that means creating a system where as many people as possible can fairly contribute to this and can be fairly rewarded for their contributions. And that’s what we’re building – we call it a data garden. And this data garden is built to provide every single human with the most optimized environment for their brain specifically to be able to hyper authentically express and connect, to share those deep pieces of them, which are the reasons we fall in love with them. And the reasons you know why we love the work that they produce. These very core-to-character, essential personality pieces of people, which people can’t share on demand for the same reason as when I tried to photograph them, they can’t show me their real self on demand.  We hide them often when they’re under demand. So, this is a very subtle environment we’ve built made of many layers, built from the 20 years of research into this exact subject of how do you draw out essential character from people. So, the AI we’re building, you know, we call it an II, interpersonal intelligence, it’s going to be a much healthier, much safer, much more fair intelligence source, not to mention magnitudes of order more powerful because it will be built from a great percentage more of our intelligence.

Nate Regier: So you’re creating a platform where you’re creating an environment where people are invited and given permission and have a safe place to show and contribute. Where everyone can, not just 1%, and where we can contribute not just . . . you’ve said some things about where we can contribute that real that real emotional, interpersonal stuff.  You’ve said too, about some of what is being contributed now is so limited based on how we’re kind of programmed and guided to contribute in ways that is just so limiting.

Jesh De Rox: That’s all so true. My neuroscience friends refer to most of the content that’s online right now as falling into one of three categories, tribalism, tits and tacos. It’s a little bit as lewd, but it is also quite poignant. And those three subjects are very interesting to humans, because they are directly connected to survival. And survival is with the base functionality of the brain, and specifically, the limbic system is really just constantly obsessed with. And that’s why it has become the prime source of focus for these huge platforms because it gets attention quicker and easier, lowest hanging fruit more than any other thing. And because the system has continually optimized towards that, it’s now at a place where 99 plus percent of the content falls into one of those three categories. And somebody who’s in the middle of a gorge syndrome, is not going to be able to access to higher parts of their consciousness, they’re not going to be connective, they’re not going to be caring of other people. And we’ve really seen the effects of that revved up in the political scene. We’ve seen it revved up, you know, in a lot of different aspects of life at this point. And, again, the environment has been completely overlooked. The social environment has been overlooked in its extremely important role in the kind of content that’s produced. So, our platform is designed from the inside out to create safe spaces for people to authentically connect with a small number of people. Because asking you what you really think about something in front of a million people you don’t know who may judge you is the most non ideal possible way to get the truth out of most people.

Nate Regier: You’ve talked well, and I don’t know that whether you invented this distinction or not, but you talk about the difference between this dopamine addiction loop and the serotonin, oxytocin kind of a loop? Will you just kind of for the listeners describe the difference between those and how that relates to the way we are online with each other?

Jesh De Rox: Yes, I certainly did not invent those but the dopamine loop, let’s just for simplicity say it’s the short term reward system. And it’s very effective because it has to do with survival. So, one of the problems with the way that algorithms were designed, is that they were designed to grab attention. They were designed to become, you know, interesting, basically, to demand the interest. And you and I could be having the most beautiful conversation in the world so stunning that we’re like crying and our souls are changed, and a bear could walk into the room. And the bear would always be more interesting than our conversation. And what social media basically is, is a bear is walking into the room every single second, bears have many different kinds. And so it’s it’s changing the dominant part of the mind in that moment to one that is completely obsessed with survival. And the issue with that, you know, dopamine drip cycle and completely attacking the limbic system that way is that their limbic system is basically the exact same, you know, mechanics, even in reptiles. There’s, there’s animals of a much, you know, quote unquote lower order than us that have that same functionality. And you know, those animals have not produced symphonies, they have not produced rocket ships, etc, etc. So, unfortunately, a mass amount of very powerful technology is basically designed to revert people to like, the lowest possible use of their body and their brain, just so they can become, you know, consuming, you know, machines. And it’s just so, so unfortunate, because you would never fall in love with somebody while they were gorging, either on food or on anything else, you wouldn’t fall in love with somebody while they were irate about something that a perceived political opponent had said, you would never, there’s just so many of the best parts of life that I feel so alive right now, that are literally just cut off when that part of the mind is dominant. So, it’s not that dopamine is bad. Yeah, it serves a very important use, but it’s the overbalance towards it that where it gets into trouble. Serotonin and oxytocin have more to do with the long-term reward system in the body. And these are the reasons why somebody will sit in their room for three years writing a book that they have no idea whether anybody else will ever care about or not. Oxytocin, specifically, you know, is released when we are being touched by people that we really love, or imagining that or being a part, you know, have a sense where we feel like we belong, we’re a part of.  So serotonin and oxytocin by prioritizing those long term reward systems, you get access to the parts of the human experience that we refer to as loving and friendly and bonding and, and also, you know, the creative, the creative part of us is highly related to those things as well.

Nate Regier: So you’re working on a platform that creates a place for people to be their authentic selves and, and provide data, emotional data and interactional data that can help give AI something better and more to work with. So, will you break it down? Very practically, I know, I’ve heard you talk about Superfeel and there’s a lot more going on the business model, everything else is a whole big story. But what is the very practical interface that the public can expect? When this thing goes live? Like me, I’m a gentle person, I’d love to help a I have better stuff to work with, I’m willing to be invited to let my personal wall down. How does it actually work?

Jesh De Rox: Well, yes, that is a very complex subject. But the short, you know, kind of story on it is that we are consent based, we are ethical, we are always about, you know, your personal privacy is paramount. So, we treat this more like a bank of data rather than a bank of you know, money. And in the same way, if a person just wants to put all of their money into a bank account and not touch it, not have anyone else touch it, that’s exactly what will happen. So, we don’t use people’s data without their permission, or anything like that. But we are creating what we call a data garden, and the data garden allows you to pour yourself into this data garden. And from there, you will have many different options similar to with banks. You can put it in different products that are meant to increase its value by sharing it. And we will have a similar type of functionality. If you choose to pour yourself in, your insights, your stories, your feelings, we will be able to build incredible products for you that will enrich mental wellness, education, and even interface with many consumer products of the future, through something we call ultrapersonalization, which means that the first time you use a certain product, it will have deep interaction with your data, and it will be able to rearticulate itself to be most useful to you. And most caring of you. What we’re really doing is creating a technology that is capable of care, which the present models are very, very far from.  Empathy and care is really, you know, core to healthy human experience and the role that tech is playing in our lives now? It has to have that same level of understanding or at least something close to it. And then lastly, we’re also creating opportunities for you to generate revenue through your data, a lot of different possibilities. So . . . .

Nate Regier: From what I’ve heard, and from what you’ve shared with our team, it’s an incredibly, an incredibly visionary model that you have. And, and this this idea when you said pour out, you know what, what I understand that to be is that means responding to prompts that I’m given, and videotaping myself while I’m responding to those prompts is that kind of part of it? Or submitting answers to questions or responding to invitations for me to respond in a different way than what what maybe is out there?

Jesh De Rox: Yeah, in the very early phase one, which is going to be launching, it’s already in beta right now. And it’ll be launching publicly in perhaps a month. At the time of this recording. One of the, like, the simplest way to say it is, it’s like a healthy version of TikTok. That is all the videos, which we call Feels, are in responses to really beautiful questions. And instead of being performative in front of a bunch of strangers, it’s really just the people you actually care about. So, it’s built with circles. It’s not about followers and followings, you just build circles of people that you actually care about and are interested in. And there’s no numbers anywhere on the platform. It’s not about how many people think you’re important in some kind of, you know, social status way. All of the notifications, instead of being numbers based, are more about how that content has impacted the people you care about. Everything is rated as inspiring, helpful, or funny. And these are the ways that humans actually benefit each other. So, if you post a feel, that, you know, makes me laugh, you’ll get a little notification that said, You just made Jesh laugh. If you inspired me or whatever. And it, we have a lot of different ways for people to basically socially encourage each other for sharing those, those little pieces of them that we care about.

Nate Regier: Well, for those that are listening, if you’re intrigued, I know there’s a lot of details we didn’t go into and you know, some of the visuals that you can share that isn’t really possible in this format, help, you know, compare kind of this old model and the new model. But if people are interested in kind of following what you’re doing, and watching this rollout come and maybe even participating, where should they go?

Jesh De Rox: Yeah, if you want to be on the early release, we have a waitlist right now on Superfeel.com. So, you can just go there and put in your email and we’d love to have you in the early, yeah, early humans.

Nate Regier: And there’s some, I mean, every human is interesting, but some of us may have heard of some of the people that are that are going to be involved. Is any of that. Is that also classified? Or Is any of that able to be shared?

Jesh De Rox: Yeah,at this point, we’re keeping that under the lid. But I will say that some of people’s favorite people you know, are going to be on the platform. And in the future, we’ve got really exciting things we’re going to be able to do with AI. Again, coming back to this idea of interpersonal intelligence, the long mission here is that we remove all of the barriers between friendship and mentorship between all humans on Earth. So regardless of whether you know this person, whether you can afford to have them, you know, meet you one-on-one, we’re giving people the tools to be able to have friendship, mentorship, level of interaction with anybody that they can possibly imagine.

Nate Regier: Alright, so I have to make a reference. I’m in Kansas, I’m a Kansas City Chiefs fan. Our Chiefs are going to the Super Bowl as of the recording here. And if you’re alive on planet Earth, you probably have, you know, you know about the Kelce-Taylor Swift whole thing. But here’s the thing related to our conversation, which I think is so heartwarming and fascinating is this person, Taylor Swift, who has been idolized and put on this pedestal and we only get to see this curated image and we have all these stories we tell ourselves. All of a sudden, we see her just like, you know, jumping up and down and freaking out in the box when her boyfriend makes a touchdown or, or being completely you know, ragged looking from being at a ballgame and giving her boyfriend a hug.  It’s like that feels like I can almost meet Taylor Swift like she’s a real person. And I’m thinking about someone like that being able to participate and say I want I want to populate the world with who I really am, there’s no facade anymore. But it is kind of these little windows where we get the chills and we feel like, oh man, this is like an actual human kind of a connection. Something like that. But anyways, by the time this goes live in April, who knows maybe the chiefs will be Super Bowl champions. Again, I don’t know. Jesh, we could go in so many different directions and every time I visit with you, your just so much going on there. And so I tell people go, sign up to see what’s going on with you and follow you because you’re bringing all of this accumulated wisdom, going to launch something that truly could change the future.

Jesh De Rox: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

Nate Regier: Thanks for joining me, everyone. I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Compassionate Accountability podcast. What struck you? What can you take and use today I’d love to hear from you. And if you haven’t already, pick up a copy of my new book Compassionate Accountability: How Leaders Build Connection and Get Results. If you’ve already read the book. I’d appreciate your review on Amazon. Contact us today to learn more about how Next Element helps companies transform their cultures with Compassionate Accountability. And remember, embracing both compassion and accountability is the secret to great leadership and the roadmap for thriving cultures and strong brands.